Fin/mast location question

[ibex]

As a complete newb to this wonderful sport, I had a question I hoped some of you could help me with.

I have an old Fanatic 340 longboard and weigh 185, and last weekend at Seneca, when I got into the straps, I found that the board was *constantly* trying to round up into the wind, and I had to seriously fight (with massive front foot pressure) to stay on a beam reach and not instantly tack.

Someone recommended that I move my mast back, but that didn't seem to help (I have usually used it 2/3 way forward, and thought moving it forward was the remedy to rounding upwind) and now that I think about it, I think that maybe I need a bigger fin, for more lateral resistance to keep the tail of the board better anchored? I have whatever the standard (hot pink no joke) fin that came with it, that is about an 8" long.

Is there any rule of thumb for matching weight/sail/board to fin size?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Shawn

[waterauthorityrick]

Ibex,

Keep up the good work overcoming those fears.

I noticed one thing regarding the foot straps (besides your color) I Never Ever put my back foot into the strap first try the front one first. I often ride with my front foot in and use the back one to move around a little to maintain stability while I get the rest of my act together then slowly put the back one in. Doing this will keep you from rounding up into the wind at the start.

Measure that fin I hope it is bigger than 8 inches, I use a 8 inch fin with my 4.2m & 3.8m sail only. For that board you should have a bigger fin to help you in your all around sailing. That said by rule a bigger fin will help you go up wind and I know you are trying to avoid this condition, however there is likely something else going on. Again by rule mast position forward will help you to sail better upwind, mast track back will help you off the wind. Light winds mast track forward, strong winds mast track back.

Try body position when you are in your harness, shift your hips forward, the balance of the MANY forces acting on you when sailing is the key. Typically when the board rounds-up into the wind most of the body weight and forces are at the back of the board becoming the PIVOT point. (which is bad) Your goal for body weight and pressure is down on the boom forcing the weight down through the mast into the board and onto the wide portion of the board (mast location)

[ibex]

Hey Rick,

Thanks for the insight and encouragement. It sounds like I need to try cranking the mast base even further back. I also tried putting in the front foot first and keeping the back foot centered on the deck (which felt pretty good), I should try that some more.

I have my board over a friend's house right now (for some reason my wife was tired of it in our living room....? ) so I'll have to measure it when I get a chance to get over there. Compared to all the folks who have modern shortboards (which I know are a completely different animal) my fin is definately smaller than theirs.

Thanks again!

shawn

[windkid]

Shawn,

Loved your post on Seneca's session!

My hat is off for anyone who tries to get in the straps on that lake in those conditions. I've uphauled on Seneca too and it really sucks Donkey balls.

Here's some random stuff.

Pee can be your friend and it is actually bacteria free...just smelly.

Fear is just the doorway to knowledge.

In windsurfing a little Hubris is a good thing, a lot is a cracked nose on your board, a ripped sail or even a cracked skull, which in my case I've been told wouldn't really matter.

I assume that when you were trying to get in the staps that you were you were in the harness. Sounds lame but if you weren't then the lack of MBP (Mast Base Pressure....you'll hear a lot about that in this sport. Rick was referring to it when he mentioned pressure on the boom. It is critcal for just about everything from water-starting to jibing), anyway a lack of MBP while in the straps can cause you to be unstable, head into the wind, tail walk etc.

Does that board got a center board? If so make darn sure it is up...all the way or just take it out completely.

A bigger fin would definitely help you plane earlier but not nessarily give you more control.
A 8 inch fin sounds way too small.

It is conventional wisdom to put the front foot in the strap first. I do that myself now but when I was learning I felf more comfortable by putting the back one in first. I really don't know why but I think at the time it seemed easier. Anyhow I eventully unlearned that habit but really the main thing is just getting used to being in the straps.

Anyway my hearty congratulations for your progress and I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to met you.

bill

[ibex]

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the encouragement. I wish I had the chance to meet you on Sunday, I wanted to thank you in person for your generousity in getting me outfitted and on the water. That wetsuit has *litterally* been a life saver. I can't tell you how grateful I am for your kindness.

I should have been more specific in my post... I am riding 95% time with the centerboard up (only when I get blown massively downwind do I drop it) and am hooked into the harness 99% of the time. I am using a seat harness that MikeyZ loaned to me before he decided to stop going to school in order to go sailing... (don't *entirely* blame him )

Anyways, I have noticed that when I crouch down and load more weight in the harness (and mast base), the board levels out, planes faster, and rides better. It seems like I have to crouch seriously low to make it happen though. Now that I htink about it, I bet my harness lines are too long (from being chicken and not wanting to commit to a shorter attachement to the boom).

I also raised my boom, which has helped too when I am so far back on the board. I will have to measure my fin here so there can be a better discussion about its size. (don't anyone read more into that sentence than is already there...)

Thanks again!

Shawn

PS I have faith that there is a waterstart yet to be had this season if I work hard enough at it.

[windkid]

Ibex

Glad to help. You are exactly right on your observations concerning the harness lines and boom height, it's all about MBP! Clealy you are a born windsurfer! You do realize of course that it is a very strange tribe you are a member of.

As for the fin, do you know what kind of fin box you have?

There are a few out there. a-box, us, power box, tuttle and deep tuttle.
No point in keeping it simple!
For the record I have more fins than a Dublin bar.
I believe that is an ethnic slur based on "Finnegan's Wake" but I'm not sure.


wk

[ibex]

Hey WK,

Sounds good, nothing at all wrong with this tribe.... With only rare exception I have encounted tons of folks that are really motivated, supportive and welcoming to newbs. One of these days somebody is going to have to teach me the secret handshake.

Hmmmm.... I need to starting thinking more about MBP. The few times I have really loaded it, the board completely smoothed out.

Comparing to the fin samples I have found online, I am pretty sure it is a US or A box fin (same I think?). It looks like the bottom one here:

windsurfingdirectaskevan.blogspot.com/2005/12/i-need-to-order-new-fin-however-i-have.html

As far as matching the fin to the conditions, do people usually have a small quiver of fins that they swap according to the conditions (like sail sizes)? I know of people throwing on a weed fin when its obviously weedy... but thats about it.

One other question... when you are planing and in the straps, do most people steer through "left vs right foot pressure" or "carving the heelside and toeside rails" like on a snowboard. I have heard it described both ways, and tried it both, with a little better success with the 'carving the rails' method. Not sure what is the right mental image though.

Thanks again for all the help and encouragement.

Cheers!

Shawn

[ibex]

Two other details MikeyZ said I should mention:

1) the control input I needed to put in (to stay on a beam reach) was a MASSIVE amount of front foot pressure (to keep the nose from rounding upwind), along with the sort of "tugging/curling with my toes to keep the tail of the board from slipping away. All of which was accompanied by this incredible ab/core strength exercise to do all of this and maintain a constant angle of attack of the sail relative to the wind.

Something, I don't know what, was really out of balance. Its what makes me think that it had to do with mast position or fin size.

2) I was sailing a 5.0 (super downhauled and outhauled to flatten it) but I might have just been over powered.

[Windydoug]

Ibex,

My turn to weigh in on the tricks o the trade. The good thing about all this input is that you will have all winter to read it over and reorganize it. Fixing one issue will cause another and you are back to relearning a certain skill. But don't think for a minute that any of us didn't go through all these issues (and still are)....well actually I don't think that Shortboard Joe every had a hard day at this sport.
Something is most definately not balanced and all the above could be the culprit. I may duplicate some of the above issues, but here is my list:

Compatibility

Are your sails newer than say 8 years old? Some of the older ones (actually much older, had unstable drafts that moved all over the place in gusts causing you to constantly be adjusting while sailing along.
Your board is tough to sail (and in some ways a reason windsurfings popularity wained) compared to more modern entry-intermediate boards. I recently reacqainted myself with a Mistral Equipe and couldn't believe how different/difficult it was to sail. I can't believe I stuck with Windsurfing after having sailed a board like that in the beginning.
Older boards road with lots of front foot pressure..... and a long board like yours with the mast set way forward would increase the front foot pressure required, a ton. Additionally, sail manufacturers back when your board was new were making sails that were balanced entirely differently than the newer ones you probably now have. Thus getting the balanced feel you desire is more difficult. So compatibility between your gear could be an issue. I recently rigged a 4 year old sail on a 7 year old mast and the combo was horrible. The mast was way to soft for the sail.

Harness lines

I'm still adjusting and readjusting them. Depending on how down and out you have your sail hauled/tightened, the center of effort will move. Harness line length will help you learning to hook and unhook, and eventually you will want to shorten them. More important is if they are balanced on the boom. You may have done this already, but try rigging you sail and then holding it with one hand on the boom in a sailing position while it is exposed to the wind. If it pulls away from you forward, move your hand a little bit forward and try again. Visa versa if the clew of the sail pulls harder. Once you have found a balance were you can manage the sial with one hand, evenly space the front and back harness attachments from your hand. Mine are about 8 inches apart...you could go more, some people go less. This is a starting point. On the water you may find that you need to fine tune forward or backward. I did this for about 15 minutes at Seneca the other day till I got them where I liked them.

Once sail, board, and you (via the harness) are all close to being in sync, you will feel a lot more sucessful and able to sail longer. I am in agreement with a previous suggestion. Daggerboard all the way up unless you are trying to attack the wind at a very sharp angle after getting blown way downwind. You should be able to make sufficient upwind progress without it once you get more proficient at sailing.

Now another suggestion...and a hard one to swallow. If you were able to get back and forth in the conditions at Seneca the other day, you are probably ready for the next step......a new board (at least new to you). Uphauling aside, a large freeride/wide board will help your sailing increase markedly. A board like a Mistral Explosion, a large Starboard Carve (150L or so) or a Bic Techno of a higher volume, so that uphauling is a very doable proposition still. I would probably say that you have progressed past a beginner board.....No daggerboard, and now the performance derived from a quiver of fins would come into greater play. It is tough to find larger A box fins these days, and investing some cash in one for a board you will soon obviously grow out of (until you are in the mood for a light wind soul session) doesn't seem like the best long range idea. Some guys around have free-wide boards that they don't use anymore.

Waterstarting will be a huge skill to start working on as well. I would recommend going to totalvid.com and spending a couple bucks to download "the A,B,C's of Waterstarting" for 7 days. I am way impressed that you could uphaul on Seneca when it was all stirred up like that. When tacking or uphauling try not to look down at the water and instead look out and away from you. Looking down kills your balance. The best place I can think of to practice waterstarting is on Canandaigua at the North end. Shallow for hundreds of feet from shore. The Park at Seneca would probably work where it is shallow close to shore, but you will soon be in weeds or water over your head. At the point you are at in your awesome windsurfing adventure, if Seneca and Canandaigua ("The Club" to regulars) are pretty similar head to Canandaigua. But don't get stuck in the comfortable Canandaigua rut once you start progressing.

My fingers are getting tired, and I have to go home and scoop the guts out of a Pumpkin, so my attempt to pass Z for the longest post must now come to an end. If any of my advice is errant, anybody please correct it.
Keep taking your lumps Shawn and soon you will be bouncing across the waves like Z racer.
Where did your screen name come from? Ibex? Just curious.
See ya out there!
Windydoug

[windkid]

Doug,

Who's your publisher! Man it took me two nights just to read it. Is that out in DVD yet?
You could title it "THe Joe Windsurfers Quide to Superior Sailing." Proceeds go to the save the CEO's Fund.

Shawn, Doug's massive missive is good stuff.

Looks like your fin box is a US and unfortunately I do not have any fins of this type beyond a small wave fin that I use. They're out there though and it would be worth it to find one.

bill

[mikeyz]

Shawn, after we talked the other night Gary asked what kind of board you had. It is a Fanatic Ultra Cat right? Gary said that was a super board in its day and one or two of our local guys used to have one. Ted maybe? Apparently they have a special footstrap position for that kind of sailing. Perhaps one of the guys can comment on the type of technique that should be used on an Ultra Cat.

New board? Yea you are probably ready for a new board already. Try to go for 140L. Mine is 8 or 9 years old and I absolutely love it and I got it for 250 two years ago.

- mike

p.s. expect a post wrapping up our OBX trip. We are all save and sound back in rochester!

[ibex]

Hey Doug,

Thank you for your patience in explaining to me some of the finer points that I am having problems with.

Most of my sails are past the 8yr old mark (the newest of my quiver is a 2000) and a couple of them are the age of a nice bottle of single malt. I have no idea what vintage my mast is, probably in the 8-10 yr range as well. Harness lines are the one thing I feel like I am starting to get the hang of, although it sounds like part of the "why don't these things ever feel like they are in the right place" might partially be a result of the sail vs shifting winds.

I can see you point that I probably nearing sight of how far (and how easily) I am going to progress on older mis-matched gear. I know I have a long ways to go, and tons more to learn with my beater gear, but I definately see your point.

I actually went out yesterday in the S end of Cayuga to try and get a waterstart, but there wasn't enough wind. I got a number of deep-water beachstarts and I feel like I am actually starting to grasp the mechanics of the heel hook/grab and sail control. Can't wait until the next 15mph day so I can try it again. I totally want a waterstart this season.

I also measured my fin and it is 9.25 inches in depth. So an inch longer than I originally thought, but that is about it. I know Doug said that I should think carefully about how much money I invest in fins for an older board like this, but is it worth buying a longer fin on ebay or something?

FWIW, for the last 15 yrs climbing has been my #1 passion, but b/c of some foot issues (and the stress it causes on the homefront) this summer is the first year that climbing has taken a back seat, but it is still a strong part of my identity as a person. Ibex (a species of wild goat in AfricaAsia) is a screen name I use(d) on several climbing boards.

Thanks again for all the help and encouragement!

Shawn

[ibex]

Hey MikeyZ,

I forgot to mention, but my board is a "Fanatic 340 Fun/Race" its a foot or so shorter than a CAT, but is pretty similar (I think Kenny has the Ultra Cat). I have been told that the 340 was their "transition board" back in the day.

Shawn

[Windydoug]

Shawn,

If you can find a used A box around town go for it. I just wouldn't spend a ton of cash on it. The A box went into decline with the advent of the other boxes that gave a stronger connection between board and fin to balance larger sails with larger fins (and eliminate centerboards on light wind shortboards). I purchased a used A box on E bay 3 years ago for 12 bucks to go with my 1986 Seatrend 9'8. I will sail it again someday...but havn't since buying the fin. Long boards are fun in the right conditions.

The feeling you get with the deep water beach start is fairly exact to the second half of a waterstart. Pulling the heal and board under you (and not pulling the sail over you) are the key, so way to go!
If your sails and mast are similar age, then you should be in good shape. Stick with what you have. I just retired a couple Naish Nalu's that I still really liked sailing, they were replaced by sails that are only a couple years newer but are of the same brand (EZZY) of the majority of my quiver...
Z is right on the money with the availability of good fairly new used gear. If you get that water start down, I know a a local who has a 120L he has been considering selling.

Bill,
Only VHS is available it this time. I do however have a website that is quite rich and appealing. I hope you will find the website full bodied with a smooth finish. The website even has a section where you can enjoy a good "Session".
The website is fullsailbrewing.com

Hoping for a couple more sessions myself!
Doug

[ibex]

Doug,

Sounds great. Thanks for your help. I look forward to seeing you out on the water at some point.

Cheers!

shawn